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PCC Chats With
Lisa Pavelka

April 24, 2003:
Lisa Pavelka: Sorry about the mispelling, typing isn't my strong point.
Corgi: Evening everyone. I'd like to thank Lisa for joining us tonight.
Dee: No prob around here
Lisa Pavelka: Right now I'm getting ready to tape my fall shows for Carol Duval, lots of teaching and traveling, and writing.
annie: how many shows you have scheduled to do for carol?
Lisa Pavelka: I'll be taping three and my duaghter Anne is taping two.
Corgi: Lisa when did you first start working with Polymer Clay?
Lisa Pavelka: I first began 15 years ago.
Corgi: What drew you to work in Polymer?
Lisa Pavelka: I was home having left my career as a television producer/director to be with my three young children. All in diapers! I missed my job and felt the need to have a creative outlet.
Lisa Pavelka: I started working with other mediums that turned out to be too dangerous around children-like stained glass, and oil painting. I then moved onto crafting.g other
Corgi: So you're self taught in PC? Or did you manage to squeeze in classes during diaper changes?
Lisa Pavelka: I was frustrated at being on the road so much with shows and keeping my booths at craft malls stocked. I figured there had to be something I could do from home and sell wholesale through someone else. I had just started playing with polymer and felt it would be the medium that would work best to develop a product line around.
Lisa Pavelka: I taught myself, but I picked up copies of the New Clay and Cecilia Detterman's Hot Off the Press books soon after getting started. I develope a line of 38 figurines which I called the "Bearly There" line.;
Corgi: Do you have a favorite technique to use?
Lisa Pavelka: The line was sold in over ten states and as you may imagine, most of them were bears. Bearly there was more my state of mind than a business the first few years.
Lisa Pavelka: I get bored easily so I have many favorites including, caning, mosaics, mica shifting, image transfer and working with foils.
Lisa Pavelka: Hi ya darling Bev!
Corgi: What brand of clay do you prefer?
bsims1238: I miss you so much.
Lisa Pavelka: Bev is a charter member of the Las Vegas guild that has since moved on to Arkansas. I miss her so!
Lisa Pavelka: I work exclusively with Donna Kato's clay. I used to work for Polyform and with their clays, but when Donna's clay came out, I new there was question about what I wanted to work with.
Lisa Pavelka: The clay like any other new product had a few bugs to work out, but it's been reformulated without losing any of the qualities that made it so great to begin with. Van Aken's chemist Tony Aquino is nothing short of a wizard!
Lisa Pavelka: Don't be shy. Someone, pick my brain!
Corgi: What do you like most about the Kato Clay?
Dee: Not sure if he'll be ok and h
Lisa Pavelka: I can't pin it down to just one thing, but out of the many reasons I love it
are: it's superior strength to any clay I've ever worked with. It's colorfastness, it white stays white through baking. Another big reason is it's price. You can beat it.
Corgi: how long did it take you to write Polymer Clay Extravaganza?
Lisa Pavelka: We'll about 6 months, but my contract allowed for two years. There was no way to move the deadline up since my publisher is on a very regimented schedule for book releases.
Lisa Pavelka: I'm hoping to get started on book number two very soon.
Corgi: What was your favorite part about writing the book?
bsims1238: Is there another book on the horizon and if so, what is the focus of this one?
Lisa Pavelka: I loved going to Ohio to work with my editor and a photographer to shoot the step-by-steps.
WWYTCH: Lisa....I've always wondered about the purses. Are they really made for use and are they hardy enough to withstand semi-regular use?
Lisa Pavelka: I'm not free to go into details just yet about the next book, but the projects will be high concept projects if that's any clue.
Lisa Pavelka: The purses are completely functional. I even have some that are designed for everyday use, including one I use. They are very durable, even more so now that I'm making them with the Kato Polyclay.
Corgi: what was your least favorite part about writing the book?
Ronnie: Hi Lisa, you're designs are so awesome - what sparks your creativity?
Lisa Pavelka: The least favorite part was being disciplined enough to get my rear into a chair and type the text. I love designing the projects, that
Lisa Pavelka: That's the fun part, but the work is righting out the steps.
Lisa Pavelka: I get ideas from everywhere! I have so many of them, I write them all down so that I have a resource to go back to if I ever get stuck. So far that hasn't happened and there a lot of things I'd love to try but haven't found the time. I see patterns in curtains, get inspired by food forms, and love to look at textiles for color combos.
Corgi: Lisa, do you teach or have thought of teaching?
WWYTCH: Textiles and PC seem to go hand in hand, inspirationally.
Lisa Pavelka: I teach very often. I sometimes travel to teach as well. I just posted my teacher's profile on PCC. The largest class I ever taught was 170+ people at HIA. I had lots of help though, didn't I Bev?e
Corgi: LOL
Lisa Pavelka: I also do a lot of volunteer teaching, especially to children.
bsims1238: Yes you did have help - but you only needed "helpers" to distribute stuff! You are a wonderful teacher - I'm definitely an example of your teaching ability!!
Corgi: What's your favorite tool to use with the clay?
Lisa Pavelka: Thanks Bev, but you're a very talented lady yourself!
Corgi: Are we all still here?
annie: here
Dee: Yes
bsims1238: yes
Corgi: I never know with delphi and its demons...
Lisa Pavelka: Everyone must have some questions.
RRadoy: yes, im here
Dee: Lisa, Can you give a hit as to what you'll be doing on CDS
Corgi: LOL I'll open the floor to you all to pick Lisa's brain... I can't read the rest of my notes, the cat knocked my water over on them.
RRadoy: LOL!
Dee: rotf
Lisa Pavelka: Yes, but you'll have to be patient since these shows won't air until Fall. I'm doing a matchbox amulet for one episode. The other two are polymer clay watch faces and wireform vessels.
Dee: gotcha
RRadoy: ooohh, cant wait to see them!
Corgi: cool
Dee: Waaay Cool!!!!
Lisa Pavelka: Hi Miss Linda, the special events coordinator for the Las Vegas Guild.
lindamarv: Hi Lisa
bsims1238: Hi Linda
annie: great!...how 'bout Anna's shows? her masks were lovely
lindamarv: I cannot wait to see how you do the watch faces
lindamarv: Hi bev
bsims1238: Are you going to do bands with the watches??
Lisa Pavelka: The producers of the show loved Anne. She has an episode airing sometime this spring on some way cool necklaces. She's taping shows on embellised recipe boxes and one on hair ties.
RRadoy: g'night all, Lisa, a pleasure!
Lisa Pavelka: Bye RRadoy!
bsims1238: Recipe boxes - that's really a terrific idea.
Dee: Nite sweets
Lisa Pavelka: The watches are primarily ones with bands, but I'll have a variation on a pendant watch.
lindamarv: looking forward to that
Lisa Pavelka: Anne is very clever and always comes up with something fab.
Dee: I just picked up a watch to make into a pendant
annie: you were at the HIA show, anything new & exciting comin? haven't really heard of anything since the show
Lisa Pavelka: I'm on the committee to plan the 2004 National Convention. Any questions about that one?.
lindamarv: Where is it going to be
KathyG: I just know I intend to come
Ronnie: I know I want to come!!
Lisa Pavelka: Yes Annie. For those of you who were wondering about the Embossing Arts book of textures and Donna's double sided stamps. Those will be produced by a new company soon and will hopefully be available in the not too distant future. r|a
WWYTCH: I'm VERY anxious for those texture sheets! They looked super on the HIA episode.
Lisa Pavelka: I hate to be a tease, but Kato Polyclay and Van Aken have some exciting new products in the works. I can't say what right now, but they're so great I can barely keep it to myself. You'll just have to trust me that it'll be worth the wait.
bsims1238: So we just have to keep checking Donna's web site for the new products???
Corgi: lol just torture us why dontcha
lindamarv: Donna was on Carol Duvall this week and was working with the liquid clay that looks like fun have you tried it with the layering?
Lisa Pavelka: I was supposed to be on that special and was cut for the second time in a row. The first was because the camera crew didn't make it to the last dozen rows of the show in the five days there. They promised to put me on this year's special and they taped me, but had to cut it since I was doing clay demos at Embossing Arts booth as well as Donna's and three weeks after the show, Embossing Arts we...
Lisa Pavelka: went out of business and they couldn't feature a product that was no longer available.
WWYTCH: What a major bummer!
Ronnie: :-(
Lisa Pavelka: Yes, keep checking Donna's website.
annie: does the kd liquid clay do transfers as well as the tls? i've been contemplating getting some of the kato sauce
bsims1238: I watched the episode today and the liquid polymer she was using looked really clear
Lisa Pavelka: I think it's even better. If you didn't catch it, Micelle Ross did a Carol Duvall segment on transfers with Donna's liquid medium (it's archived at HGTV).
Lisa Pavelka: The liquid clay dries very clear, is easier to polish (like the rest of Donna's clay) and dries with a sheen.
bsims1238: Must get some - I can't live without some form of TLS
annie: ah ha.....i did see that episode, but did not realize it was the kato sauce.....now that you mention it, it's coming back to me..brainfart i reckon lol
Dee: can it be sanded
Lisa Pavelka: It sure can! Like Donna's other clay, I only sand now with 600 grit paper. No more, 600, 800, 1000. 1500, 2000 before taking it to the buffer.
Dee: Really
Lisa Pavelka: My tendonitis thanks Kato Polyclay for keeping my hands out of braces. One day, I'll be able to hire out for all my sanding needs.
annie: wow!....i got my replacement clay months ago, but haven't really used any yet, i must do that soon....the mica shift in her clay is fantastic, i have used some of that
Lisa Pavelka: I agree. That's because her clay is much more heavily saturated with mica particles than the other brands.
Lisa Pavelka: Does anyone have any business questions related to their clay work?
bsims1238: pricing and finding a market - I seem to give everything away.
Dee: Me too!
annie: i think it's great the exposure polyclay has been getting over this past year.....hope this raises the ceiling on our market & prices for our pieces
Corgi: I'm still hacking my way through that.
Lisa Pavelka: I prefer to wholesale my work so I have more time to create. That works best when you have a rep who will do the leg work and placement for you. If you don't have a really good feel for the value of your work, one good formula is to determine how long it takes to make a particular item and figure out what you should be paid on an hourly basis.
bsims1238: I tried that - but I'm so OCD on finishing stuff that I'd get about two cents an hour!
Corgi: OCD?
bsims1238: Obsessive-Compulsive disorder
Dee: LOL
Lisa Pavelka: Another way is to figure the cost of materials-which is usually the lest expensive aspect of your work since polymer clay creations tend to be very labor intensive and mulitply the cost of materials by ten for your price. Keep in mind that wholesaling it means taking half of that. and maybe more if you pay a rep a commission. ed to asr
Lisa Pavelka: YOu have to decide whether you are making it worth you while.
lindamarv: how do you go about finding a rep?
Lisa Pavelka: My least expensive polymer clay item goes for $20. The most expensive to date has been $600. My carved eggs go between $30 and $1600.
bsims1238: I may never sell stuff, but I can't stop making it because I love it doing it so much.
Lisa Pavelka: You have to believe in your worth. Underpricing yourself is more harmful than overpricing. Consummers have a concept called perceived value. If something is to inexpensive, they think what's wrong with it, or that it's cheaply made, no matter how much work and craftmanship you put into a piece.cheap
Lisa Pavelka: Passion for working with the clay is the best reason of all to do it! I'm just the luckiest girl in the world that I've been able to find a second career in doing clay. I still can't believe people are willing to part with their money for something I made. Theat
bsims1238: That really clarifies things - I'd never thought of that before.
lindamarv: I agree with that
Lisa Pavelka: Some of my sales reps have been friends. Make sure they are willing to handle things professionally. I've also had professional reps. One way is to approach a showroom in a local merchandise mart. There are lots of trade magazines that also list reps looking for lines. The back of magazines like Crafts Report also lists reps.
Dee: Good to know!
lindamarv: thanks i will look into it
bsims1238: What if you live in a very small town where clay isn't well known as an artistic medium? Where would you try to market it?
Lisa Pavelka: FYI on the National Conference. It will be held in San Diego, California in the Summer of 2004. It will be geared to polyholics of all skill levels. We're looking for a more diverse group of teachers and classes to offer than in years past.
lindamarv: I am really looking forward to that
Lisa Pavelka: I'd try an artistic venue. Sometimes areas like that are better venues for marketing your work than areas where people have preconcieved notions and prejudices agains polymer clay.
Lisa Pavelka: I was trying to type "any" artistic venue. That's what I get for trying to type too fast.
Dee: Like NY?
bsims1238: Like local craft shows?
Lisa Pavelka: Exactly, Dee. I personally dismiss people who approach what I do with that attitude. It's not the medium, but what you do with it that makes it art!
Dee: Thank you!!!
Lisa Pavelka: |Bev, craft shows are one possiblity. Also look into local stores and galleries if you are able to sell your work at a wholesale price point.
Lisa Pavelka: Your welcome Dee. That issue is one of my personal soap box favorites.
bsims1238: We have a lot of those here - I'll work on doing that.
Dee: I hear ya!
Dee: I live in a town of artistic snobs
Lisa Pavelka: Heaven help the poor soul that approaches me with a nose in the air, elitist attitude about art.
bsims1238: I simply cannot believe that anyone could look at the things that can be done with polymer clay and not call it art. It is phenomenal.
lindamarv: People use the "junk" that they find in the street and put it together to make art.
Dee: YES!!!!!
Dee: You mean found objects, bev?
Dee: Sorry that was to Linda
bsims1238: I think that was Linda, but yes - found objects.
lindamarv: I stand corrected
Lisa Pavelka: We're lucky to work with such a versitile medium that it is attractive to so many different people for so many reasons. Anyone using it for crafting and hobby purposes in no way negates it's value as a fine art medium. If that were the case, no one could make fine art with pencil, oil paint, water color or pastels since children and hobbiest use these mediums too.
Dee: LOL
Dee: Bless you Lisa!
bsims1238: Agree with Dee.
Dee: ;-)
Lisa Pavelka: Just calling it like I see it.
lindamarv: This is fun, I never did a chat line before and when we are all on the same subject it is fun
Corgi: This is what happens when clay heads get together.
Dee: right?
bsims1238: My first chat as well - I am a lurker - I only came out because of the guest.
Ronnie: we're glad you did bsims
Dee: Clay Heads? Good one!
bsims1238: Not because she told me to join, but because of my admiration for her as a person and an artist.
Lisa Pavelka: I especially love those people who don't think that anyone without an MFA attached to their name can create legitimate art. Michaelangelo didn't have an MFA last time I checked.nder What c
KathyG: That's what the Inkslingers named us I believe
Lisa Pavelka: Bev, stop-I'm blushing here.
bsims1238: What? Clay heads??
Corgi: yep
Lisa Pavelka: I prefer polyholic.
KathyG: yes
WWYTCH: I've been called worse than a clay head, believe me...:-)
Lisa Pavelka: May we never be cured!
Dee: Inkslingers???
kellieAK: me too carlita
KathyG: rubber stampers
WWYTCH: Good one, Lisa.
Lisa Pavelka: How about clay babes?
kellieAK: that is what my home page says, "yo, clay babe!"
Dee: Kellie!!!
Dee: Gotcha
Lisa Pavelka: As for the guys, we're looking at doing a series in Polymer Cafe on the "heart throbs of polymer clay."
bsims1238: can't wait to see that one!
Corgi: OHHH a beefcake issue!! cool
kellieAK: claygirl
WWYTCH: That was quite a nice thread over at the Yahoo egroup recently....guys in PC
Earthmother: rofl Kellie
Lisa Pavelka: Linda, was it you that said we should call them Hunks? Get it, like in hunks of clay?
Ronnie: LOL
bsims1238: better than chunks
kellieAK: :0
lindamarv: It is so much fun to introduce the clay to artists that use other mediums, I have recently been the cause of addition to a fiberartist and glass artist, painter. They are so thrilled with this medium that they have called and asked for directions when they got stuck with their projects
WWYTCH: Men in Clay...they are Premo.....
KathyG: lol
Earthmother: LOL Carla!!
kellieAK: oh, perfect carla
bsims1238: good one -
Lisa Pavelka: Well look out for the names of Tony Aqauino, Pete Sutton, Johnny Kourbosi, and Robert Wiley
kellieAK: bob rocks
Dee: :-)
Lisa Pavelka: I'm hoping to get the producers of the Carol Duvall show to bring him on next fall.
kellieAK: oh, that would be awesome, to see our FimoBob on the CD show
Dee: That's really cool Lisa
Corgi: OHHHH COOL GO BOB!
Lisa Pavelka: I have to tell you though, he'd be going under the sponsorship of Kato Polyclay. I think I've converted him.
bsims1238: I love Bob's three dimensional polymer clay hearts.
kellieAK: well, we won't hold that against him.
Lisa Pavelka: He does great things with those SAR stamps.
kellieAK: yep, and faux wood inlay
Lisa Pavelka: That what I'm enticing the producers at Carol's with.
kellieAK: he recently won the Embellishment thing...
Dee: I Can't wait to see the pix from that award he won (???)
kellieAK: you and me both dee
Lisa Pavelka: Isn't that great? I'm so happy for him.
bsims1238: Did he win for one of his SAR creations?
kellieAK: it is fantastic
kellieAK: he didn't know yet, he had submitted two things, do you know lisa?
Dee: Thanks Kel, I couldn't remember Embellishment. Duh!
Lisa Pavelka: No. Bev, it was for one of his faux wood parquetry necklaces.
bsims1238: I haven't seen the necklaces, but I did see one of his wood parquetry pens. It was awesome.
kellieAK: he does very precise work, my mom has one of his SAR hearts
Lisa Pavelka: Bob was recently in Vegas and took a couple of classes from me. He was quite the indespensible assistant to me.
lindamarv: What is SAR?
kellieAK: Some Assembly Required
lindamarv: Thanks kellieak
Lisa Pavelka: It stands for Some Assembly Required. They manufacture stamp sets that create interlocking patterns when cut from paper (or in this case, clay). The assemble to create dimensional stars, hearts, tress, etc. They come in various sizes so the projects are suitable for jewelry, ornaments and more.
bsims1238: I had their website at one time and occasionally just went there to drool over the hearts and trees, etc.
kellieAK: he has worked for a long time to perfect using the SAR stamps with clay
Lisa Pavelka: The SAR website is: www.some-assembly-required.com
Dee: Thanks again Lisa
lindamarv: I will have to go to that web site
Lisa Pavelka: Linda, next time your over, I'll have to show you one of Bob's heart pins.
bsims1238: Thanks Lisa - the "dashes" always throw me off and I hadn't been able to find it since I've moved.
lindamarv: thanks i would love to see it
Lisa Pavelka: Any questions from our new guests?
byallison: My pasta machine is being a bad boy. He is chewing up my clay. We cleaned it but it still is acting cranky. Any ideas?
byallison: Actually the clay is going around on the rollers, sometimes the front and sometimes the back.
Lisa Pavelka: I hate to say it, but that's often a sign that the roller guides are warped. I've had to replace a couple of machines with that very problem. When cleaning a machine it's very easy to bend these guides and create this problem. One thing I suggest is to take the machine apart and switch the guide plates around to see if it improves. Sometimes these get switched fit differently on the other roller.
KCRedcat: HI ALL!
Lisa Pavelka: HI KIm, welcome
Corgi: hit kim
Corgi: hi
KCRedcat: LOL
Dee: I have a question about Kato Klay. I was reading the other day that some clayers were having a prob with White being very dry. Can Sculpey diluent be used?
Lisa Pavelka: Don't hit Kim. Or did you mean hi! Tee he.Ha
KCRedcat: yeah, don't ened anymore ouchies thanks!
Dee: lol
Corgi: meant hi... kim doesn't need to be hit...
KCRedcat: nope, lol
Lisa Pavelka: Yes it can. The dryness may be from the original formulations which have been corrected. The clay is being formulated so that all the colors have the same consistancy.
Dee: cool.
Dee: I still have the old stuff.
Lisa Pavelka: Anyone who had problems witt the clay when it first came out really out to give it another try because it's phenomenal.
KCRedcat: I finally got some Kato Clay today...red and yellow
Lisa Pavelka: Dee, if you're having problems with the old stuff, let Vernon at Prairie Craft know. He'll make it right.
Dee: After all this time?
Lisa Pavelka: I hope you love working with it as much as I do. LInda, have you played with the Kato Clay I gave you yet?
byallison: I'd like to know that too. It almost seems too long.
bsims1238: Yeah - mine was on the UPS truck all day before it got to me - but that wasn't Vernon's fault. It was really well packed - but it was warm when I got it.
Lisa Pavelka: Yes, Dee. If you didn't get around to it until recently and discovered it was very crumbly, just explain that it's been sitting around for a while before you got around to using it. If you discovered the problem right away, but didn't let him know, tell him you weren't sure they'd do anything about it. Let him know you talked with me. They want people to like the product and stand behind it.
Dee: they gotta find a better way of shipping clay
lindamarv: I was working with it today and love the feel of it but I have not finished a project to see how it polishes, I can't wait to try it after what you said tonight
byallison: I tried several colors at the widest setting. On my machine that is a 7.
Earthmother: *PART* Left room.
Lisa Pavelka: One of the changes they made was to make it less heat sensitive. The first formulation started to cure around 90 degrees, whereas Premo and Sculpey begins to cure around 125 degrees. They've reformulated it to have a heat tolerence of 140 degrees. Higher tolerence than Polyform clays.
Dee: Ok, thanks i'll do that
KCRedcat: wow!
Dee: wooof!
lindamarv: say hello to Burt
lindamarv: sorry I pushed the wrong button
bsims1238: You are too funny and very nice - I let him read your message.
byallison: Compared to Premo, how is the new Kato Clay to condition?
Lisa Pavelka: As with any new product, it's not unusal to have some bugs to work out. They've done that, but are not content to sit on their laurels. They intend to improve the product whenever and however possible. In the meantime, they want their customers to be satisfied. Let them know if you've had any problems with the clay, even if it's been a while. Just let them know you sat on it because you weren'...
bsims1238: hey - we'll learn! He loved it.
KCRedcat: esp with Donna's name on it
KCRedcat: hi rubarb & tan
Lisa Pavelka: The new formulation of Kato Clay is slightly stiffer than Premo, but shouldn't be hard to condition. It has a longer open time (more time to work with it before it sets up and need reconditioning).
KCRedcat: that's good to know....
byallison: Did anyone see her on Carol Duval today.
bsims1238: I did. I try never to miss an episode with Donna or Lisa or Anne.
KCRedcat: for ME Premo in canes was a problem...they 'froze' too fast
Dee: Yes!
Lisa Pavelka: Drats, those dreaded limits on responses. I was going to say, let them know you weren't used to companies who feature customer service and you've heard that they are different.
lindamarv: I liked her method but I haven't tried using the heat gun for the clay yet
KCRedcat: I tape all Carol Duvall Shows...well, the new ones....have a library of the old ones
rubarb04: i always mess up on these things
Lisa Pavelka: I'll be on the 28th or 29th with a new episode on Silk Screening on clay. Check my website for the exact date.
KCRedcat: ohhhhhhh
Dee: Kewl!
bsims1238: Is it simplified? I need "Polymer Clay for Dummies"
Lisa Pavelka: I also have a clock featured in an upcoming episode where they asked some of the regular guests to do a desinger challenge with a product called Ring Dings. I don't know the day it airs yet, but I'll add it to my website when I find out.
KCRedcat: so many things to do....and try.....
byallison: Dh was not pleased. I innocently asked him if he had a heat gun.
lindamarv: Bev, I have seen your work and you are great and don't need that Dummies book
KCRedcat: lol
KathyG: are you actually using a silk screen or something like PhotoEZ?
Lisa Pavelka: It's very basic. You can always tgo to the written project instructions on the HGTV website. Type in my name and it will bring up all of my previous show projects. Click onto the project to get the instructions.
bsims1238: Thanks Linda - but sometimes I feel like I need that book!
KCRedcat: I wish they had better pics online at HGTV....
KCRedcat: and would put the episode # at the end of the show too......
Lisa Pavelka: That's exactly what I'm using, although we are seldom if ever allowed to say a product by name on the show. I tried, but couldn't get permission. Gwen Gibson asked me if I would do a project on the show with the Photo-Ez.
Dee: Bev, I understand you! My email addy is klayklutz ;-)
Corgi: Gang I need to bail. Lisa Thanks so much for joining us tonight!
KathyG: I really enjoy using the PhotoEX
KathyG: EZ that is
bsims1238: Dee - thanks. Now I don't feel so alone.
Lisa Pavelka: Wouldn't that be helpful. I don't think I can do anything about the number of pictures, but I'll mention it to the producers for next season.
KCRedcat: ahhhhhh, yeah, I noticed how they did that..... with the Kato Sauce episode I jsut watched on my tape....
Corgi: Lisa Hope your brother recovers and I'll talk to you soon.
KCRedcat: night Corgi!
Corgi: *LOG at 4/24/2003 11:28:07 PM* OFF


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